tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28633811.post116284291541250085..comments2023-10-29T09:20:01.247-05:00Comments on In This Moment: The Progressive Muslim Union and the great Niqab DebateDiane Silverhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01134079095789524153noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28633811.post-1163602769481251852006-11-15T08:59:00.000-06:002006-11-15T08:59:00.000-06:00Hi Bill,I think you are raising really important i...Hi Bill,<BR/><BR/>I think you are raising really important issues when it comes to rigidity in faith. Obviously there are some issues where what one person thinks is rigid others will not, like the daily prayers you mention. <BR/><BR/>To me, it's not extreme at all to pray five times a day in a ritual format, rather the prayers are a beautiful ritual, that provide just the right balance -- short reminders throughout the day of your true place in the universe (something I think atheists can relate to very well, or I least I certainly did when I was an atheist and was always amazed at how religious people thought they were the center of the universe, whereas it was really clear to me that we are just specks in the face of the infinite.) Most of us need a regular reminder cause it's so easy to get caught up in the petty. And by having it formalized in a set pattern, you don't have to think about the words, you only have to worry about the feeling, the lesson you are supposed to be learning. Does everyone approach it that? I wish!<BR/><BR/>As you say, a lot of people get totally focused on the performance rather than the spirit. And there, I think you are right in drawing parallels between orthodox Islam and orthodox Judaism.<BR/><BR/>I almost always go for the spiritual, forgiving, compassionate face of faith, but I have been thinking about the more rigid approach -- that is, the belief that the more perfectly executed an action is, the more devotion to God it shows. <BR/><BR/>On the one hand, I can't imagine a God capable of creating the universe (or setting it in motion via the Big Bang) as really caring about picayune details. But on the other, I see how precise the laws of nature are, and how even a tiny adjustment in certain constants would render life as we know it impossible, and then I think, well, maybe these folks are onto something.<BR/><BR/>The real key to me is to be able to believe in whatever way you believe but still leaving other people to believe what they want to believe. The evangelical Christians probably have it toughest in this department, since your eternal soul depends upon believing what they believe, but a lot of Muslims are vying for the title of most self-righteous on the face of the earth.<BR/><BR/>It's pretty sad, because the Qur'an has incredibly powerful passages of tolerance and mutual acceptance. 1) it's one of the few religions I know of that actually, specifically, and repeatedly says people following a different religion live in the pleasure of God and have a place in Heaven. 2) even those who are not following one of those religions are told, "To you your way, to me mine." Wow! Not convert or die! And this is in the chapter dedicated to "Kaffirs" unbelievers.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, I wax poetic. Unfortunately, most of the Muslim world seems to have forgotten this in the throes of post-colonial, post-industrial revolution, post feminist revolution modernization under brutal dictatorships and/or theocracies.<BR/><BR/>Ridigity and extremity in dress is just a manifestation of the extreme upheavals these societies are going through. In the face of overwhelming forces which they have no control over, and terrible stituations they have no hope of changing, religious practice becomes a bastion of order and meaning. I think the same thing happened in America -- in the face of sweeping social change and political processes which seemed beyond the influence of common people, we saw a return to religious fervor and ridigity.<BR/><BR/>Interesting topics! Thanks for bringing them up Bill!<BR/><BR/>PamelaPamela K Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15947873372317850970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28633811.post-1163532411218851442006-11-14T13:26:00.000-06:002006-11-14T13:26:00.000-06:00Pamela,Thanks so much for making this post and for...Pamela,<BR/><BR/>Thanks so much for making this post and for your follow-up. You've given me a much better understanding of the issue. I have to admit that it always has made me uncomfortable to see a woman in the niqab. I do so appreciate your argumetns and your perspective.Diane Silverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01134079095789524153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28633811.post-1163529285772535952006-11-14T12:34:00.000-06:002006-11-14T12:34:00.000-06:00Hi Bill!>How can you eat an ice cream cone with yo...Hi Bill!<BR/><BR/>>How can you eat an ice cream cone with your face covered?<BR/><BR/>I have no idea! :D Although there is a really gross video you can watch on youtube of a couple of women eating spaghetti with their faces covered. I suspect it is a spoof, except that it looks just too real.<BR/><BR/>>Personally, I think people of different faiths want a sort of novelty to hang on to that identifies them. <BR/><BR/>I think there is definately an element of that. There's another passage in the Qur'an (that I didn't quote) that, in fact, addresses this issue, telling Muslim women to dress in a manner so as to be known as Muslims. This was in the context of women having to go out to use the bushes at night, and men approaching them for a business deal. The women were advised to wear distinctive clothing so they wouldn't be bothered by men trying to purchase their wares, as it were.<BR/><BR/>While that is not so much a problem any more, the notion that one wishes to identify oneself as a practitioner of a particular faith, and to have one's clothing act as a form of witness is not particular to Islam. <BR/><BR/>>based on the passage you cited, it would be just as appropriate to wear a crew-neck t-shirt or sweater or a blouse that doesn't expose your chest. <BR/><BR/>And there are plenty of Muslims who argue just that point of view. The traditional scholars all agree that the headscarf (not the face veil) is required by Islam, which makes it a bit of an uphill argument, but many Muslim women (and men) don't think even a headscarf is required. Of course, there are just as many who would side with the traditional scholars and believe it is required...<BR/><BR/><BR/>>While certainly our culture (America) has alot of uncovering going on, I still think there is plenty of respect afforded to those of modesty. <BR/><BR/>I would argue there's a decent amount of respect afforded to even people dressing scantily. There's a hot issue in the Muslim community right now about an imam in Australia who make the outrageous comment that women who are not covered are like uncovered meat, if the cat eats the meat, don't blame the cat; ie if men ogle, fondle, rape, etc women who aren't hijabed, then don't blame the men. (!!) I wrote an article for Naseeb.com showing why this is a totally bankrupt statement from an Islamic point of view, and one of my side arguments was the men here in America have proven just how wrong the notion that men are uncontrollable beasts who can't help but act upon their urges in the presence of unclothed women is -- most women can walk down the street dressed like Brittney Spears or Beyonce and still not get much beyond a second look. <BR/><BR/><BR/>>It is this modesty that seems to be appropriate to achieve, the head covering seems to undo this modesty by pronouncing your faith uncomfortably to people at times. <BR/><BR/>I think there is a balance to be achieved. If a woman wants to cover her head as part of her understanding of what it means to be modest, well, I think we shouldn't be too uncomfortable with that. A lot of Jewish men wear skullcaps, many Sikhs wear turbans, a lot of christians wear crosses. If a Muslim woman wants to identify herself with a headscarf and/or defines modesty as having the head covered, I think we should be able to expand our comfort zone to include that. I am totally against the sort of state imposition of veiling ala Iran or Saudi Arabia, but if it's a woman's individual choice, as it is the vast majority of the time here in the US, then I think we need to get over feeling too uncomfortable with it.<BR/><BR/>Of course, sometimes wearing a cross or scarf goes hand in hand with an attitude that is really unpleasant (which is probably why some of us are uncomfortable with them), but I think in that case we need to focus on the root cause -- the attitude -- not the symptom, a piece of jewelry or a scarf.<BR/><BR/><BR/>>is really an issue of isolation yet pronouncement of the muslim community.<BR/><BR/>That for me is one of the big issues regarding the face veil. It is far more isolating to go around in clothing such that no one can identify you. I had a good friend who started wearing a face veil, and the first time I saw her with it on, I walked up and introducted myself because I didn't recognize her. I can't imagine having a teacher who wears a face veil, as facial expressions and the movement of the lips are so important for full communication. <BR/><BR/>Similarly, you find women wearing scarves in just about every profession, but a woman wearing a face veil is cut off from so much of society.<BR/><BR/>Which, of course, is only one of the ways face veils act to isolate. The other is that they represent a point of view that encourages separation from society, and in particular from Western society which is seen as decadent and decaying. Again, it may be that a face veil is a symptom of a much deeper problem -- but I hope that encouraging women not to wear them will help overcome that problem. As we get to know one another better (or for those of us who are thoroughly American Muslims, as we bring together the people in our lives who haven't yet bridged the two communities as we have)the stereotyping and alienation falls away, but with a literal barrier to communication in the way, that is much less likely to happen. We need more communication, more understanding and appreciation of the good things each of us have to share.<BR/><BR/>PamelaPamela K Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15947873372317850970noreply@blogger.com